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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.13 11:33:00 -
[1]
1. She is right to point out that a 2.1 billion isk payout is a great incentive to have alts do plexes throughout the day. Plexes are extremely boring if opponent decides to not engage (which is the majority of the time).
2. Agreed, but in the end nerfing the missions will just keep the isk/lp ratio high which means tons of isk will still be made. Key factors: 1. Low sec keeps carebears out, and 2. FW specific items keeps out competition. (see Sisters probes out of Aeschee for as a direct comparison).
3. Plenty of casual pvp all over the place. Val Erian shows that as well.
Bottom line is that Pervs are the smartest corp in FW. They will milk any system (and rightly so) for all it's worth. :) If the 2.1 billion isk payout could be made for Gallente then the map would be the other way around. We've already seen Dark-Rising members admit that they run plexes for Caldari to get that $2.1 billion isk payout.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.14 01:05:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Beltantis Torrence
Few things.1) Someone needs to explain to me how to make 2.1 billion isk off defensive plexing per day. I just don't see it.
Apparently you can use FW to build the standings of a noob Caldari character. That character then has access to lucrative - once in an Eve lifetime - Caldari cosmos missions which are worth 2.1 billion. Complete missions. Flush character and start all over again.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.19 03:06:00 -
[3]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 19/10/2009 03:08:22
I gotta say that I've had a blast trying (mostly unsuccessfully) to foil people's missions over the past couple of weeks. It is very difficult to catch the mission runners unless they aren't paying attention or make some critical error. The missions are so quick that you have to guess a bit too since there's often not enough time to scout them out and then go get an appropriate ship.
For these reasons I'd love for there to be some way to kill somebody's mission (especially to counter all those guys running around in stealth bombers that are immune to gate camps and flee the second somebody arrives in their "assassinate the FC" mission.) As it stands now they just wait me out and come back after I've left system to finish it off. Having ways to fail a mission would also lead to lower overall isk/hour for FW missions that everybody has been complaining about. Giving mission griefers rewards for griefing these missions would also increase the risk associated with FW missions.
Longer plexing timers favor more organized, larger, and more optimized fleets. Therefore I'm in the "shorten the timer" crowd for whatever plex modification occurs. Kill all the NPCs and you're done, period. This would discourage blobs with their large inertia, and encourage quicker skirmish warfare which relies on quick response time and personal initiative. As pointed out by everybody the "kill all the npcs" requirement would also discourage wcs'd frig setups. (Also orbitting buttons with no fights for long periods of time is also very boring.)
Until the occupancy measures are changed to reflect who really controls specific systems (Gallente control Nennamalia, More Cowbell control Oicx, Pervs control Ladistier, Pirates control Murethand and Covryn), this PvE = Occupancy nonsense will continue.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.21 17:37:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Mutnin
There needs to be a reason for people to stop running plexes with nano frigs and give them a reason to stick around and fight someone whom enters the plex.. Rather than run off to some other system at first sight of a threat.
If you want fights, use the missioning mechanic instead. Go grab a an appropriate level mission in Tama or anywhere else and then wait for a response. PvP on demand anywhere you want at the level you want it. Finish it off after the fight for some well-earned isk/lp.
If you want to "fight" for "system occupancy" against a fleet of warp core stabbed frigs orbitting buttons for 10 to 20 minutes, go ahead. EvE is a sandbox after all.
The real question is how to fix the occupancy mechanic. Right now it favors warp core stabbed frig fleets of alts and being bored senseless orbitting buttons. I suggest that the measure of occupancy needs to change to reflect reality. The side that lives and fights in a given location should be declared the occupier.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.26 16:30:00 -
[5]
Once one side brings bigger numbers to win specific system, the other side will quit and go do something else. Then, no fights. Then side with bigger numbers gets to orbit buttons forever.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.26 17:44:00 -
[6]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 26/10/2009 17:45:58
You know what? I'm gonna have to agree with you especially in Eha where there's something like 10 mission runners online all the time. Open up a level 1 mission, wait, and.... nothing. I guess bottom line is that PvP is consensual and if one party doesn't want to engage for whatever reason it ain't gonna happen.
In any case I was able to finish the mission after it was clear nobody wanted to play, get some token lps and isk, and not have to wait 15 minutes to burn down the button.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.28 18:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cearain
Edited by: Cearain on 28/10/2009 18:15:51
Edited by: Cearain on 28/10/2009 18:15:20Why would you be against giving rewards for pvp wt kills? This is the absolute best way to get more people to engage something other than npcs. It's the only bonus we get for engaging the enemy in this war. Why is it fine that it is so little that it is the same as nothing?
Ripe for abuse if lps are too high. Create alt account in opposing FW militia. Have alt undock in unfit Atron (20,000 isk). Kill alt. Repeat. Reap rewards.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.28 20:35:00 -
[8]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 28/10/2009 20:37:42
The real key here, IMO, is how can we make Occupancy reflect reality.
Let's be honest, we can all get into fights pretty easily. Just have your opponent perceive (whether true or not) that you are in something smaller and less powerful than he is.
Few players engage in fights they don't think they can win no matter what the potential reward is. No potential occupancy mechanic nor potential isk rewards will change that, IMO. As an example, there are massive isk rewards for missions. But the mission runners bail at first sign of trouble anyways.
So instead, let's have occupancy reflect reality. Nobody occupies Odamia. Gallente occupy Nennamaila. PERVS occupy Ladistier. Pirates occupy Covryn. The occupancy issue will be solved once the map shows this.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.29 16:06:00 -
[9]
Quick version:
No occupancy mechanic will encourage PvP because it's goals are achieved by means that are contrary to players choosing to PvP.
tl;dr version:
Originally by: Cearain
You assume the players are irrational. Players don't engage losing battles because they don't want to just throw away isk.
Correct, except I'm assuming they are rational and perhaps cautious.
Quote:
So if they think there is only a 45% chance of winning they might not engage. But if there rewards of winning are doubled and the risk stays the same they should be more likely to engage. No players don't always act rationally, but I don't think the game should assume they will act irrationally.
Correct. But when do you come up against a 50/50 fight in Eve? But let's go with that down below.
Quote:
As far as mission runners leaving what does that have to do with anything?
This was in reference to FW missions, with their massive rewards and the expectation that somebody may come into your publicly broadcast mission. If there was ever a good reason to stay and fight with a 50/50 chance of winning this would be it. Yet most bail.
From a pure greed standpoint, for both sides to get into a fight they must believe that:
Chance of winning * potential reward > cost of losing * chance of losing.
(cost of losing includes isk and time spent getting new ship and fit, and tolerance for using time to do these activities)
From a game playing standpoint, each side has to think it's going to have some fun.
To take space (occupancy), your goal is not PvP. Your goal is to win occupancy. You're going to bring more than your opponent by orders of magnitude if you can. Whether this is massive numbers of afk plexing alts in frigs, or when a plex is up you bring 3x more than your opponnent. We've all heard that you're doing it wrong if you get into a 50/50 fight.
Therefore, any occupancy mechanic discourages PvP if the sides are unbalanced. The side with greater numbers (time online*number of players online who want to engage in occupancy mechanic) will resort to some generalized blobbing - whether it's massive numbers of afk plexing alts spread throughout the theater of operation or a concentration of ships to a specific theater of operation. The side with lower numbers will disengage because it isn't fun to get blobbed in a plex and destroyed.
Note that longer timers suggested in this thread give the side with greater numbers more of a chance to respond with a blob. Sometimes the fleets will be even and there will be a fight.
If you really want PvP, then make your opponent think he can have some fun pew pewing. If you want occupancy, then continue using afk plexing alts 23/7, and blob plexes when there is some resistance.
In summary: No occupancy mechanic will ever encourage PvP as long as the numbers on each side are unbalanced. Players encourage PvP by either increasing their tolerance for risk, or at least making their opponent think he'll have fun engaging.
So that's my occupancy theory. As it stands now there are more Caldari who are willing to put in massive numbers of boring hours orbiting defensive buttons than Gallente and it shows on the map. They'll do whatever they can to "blob" whatever occupancy/plexing mechanic that is proposed here and when they do the other side will disengage.
All I ask is that the occupancy map reflect reality. If Caldari truly occupy Nennamaila, then why are several Gallente corporations stationed there? Why are there no Caldari in Western Placid? etc...
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.10.29 18:07:00 -
[10]
Edited by: X Gallentius on 29/10/2009 18:08:20
Was reading too much into what you were typing.
I agree, more lp for pvp will lead to more kills. Exploit would be moved to hot spot if lps are too high - especially if there is a cloning facility in the hotspot. But I guess this isn't too bad if you find the right lp balance.
If this pvp-encouraging mechanic is tied to occupancy, then it won't matter, IMO. The occupancy blob will come (in the Caldari-Gallente theater) to win occupancy and there will be less pvp than you would first think, IMO.
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